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2025-10-30 1852 AEDT

Oct 30, 2025

UN CEFACT GTR Project - AUS / EU​

Invited Alina Nica Gales John Phillips Jo Spencer Steve Capell

Attachments UN CEFACT GTR Project - AUS / EU

Meeting records Transcript Recording

Summary​

John Phillips opened the bi-weekly meeting by reviewing the established code of conduct and IPR rules before Hans J. Huber presented an analogy of local business discoverability, drawing parallels between Google Business and the project's goal of making official business registry entries globally discoverable. The participants discussed the "layers" of business knowledge, with John Phillips emphasizing the project's narrow focus on legal trade and authoritative sources from nation states, as opposed to Google’s consumer-focused approach, while Hans J. Huber and John Phillips discussed governance challenges in business directories. John Phillips provided updates on the ongoing action items, the structuring of six major documents, the framework for pilots (GRID and DIA), and the transition of documentation from Google Docs to the UNICC's GitLab environment; Sankarshan provided an update on the technology architecture draft, and Alina's work on digital identity anchor legal requirements was noted. The core talking points included the proposed GRID (Global Registrar Information Directory) logical model, the differentiation between GRID management and DIA pilots, the potential for commercialization of verification services on top of the GRID, and the essential requirement for registrar eligibility in the GRID, as confirmed by John Phillips and Virginia Cram.

Details​

Notes Length: Long

  • Introduction to the UNC Fact Global Trust Registry Project and Ground Rules: John Phillips opened the bi-weekly meeting for the UNC Fact Global Trust Registry Project, reminding all participants, both those in the call and those watching the video, of the established code of conduct and IPR. The IPR rules provided by UNCEFACT essentially mandate open-source standards and royalty-free use of content. John Phillips then immediately handed the floor to Hans J. Huber, as Hans J. Huber had offered to share their screen before the recording began (00:00:00).

  • Analogy of Local Business Discoverability (Google Business): Hans J. Huber began by sharing their screen, presenting an image of a street corner in Senegal where people are engaged in trade. Hans J. Huber noted that this represents local trade and pointed out a small sign in the image, explaining that it serves as an identifier for a business, making it discoverable. Clicking the sign would lead to information about the business, illustrating how data about the business can be resolved. Hans J. Huber provided the example of a bakery owner who might not even be aware that their business information is presented there, and how platforms like Google often offer features like "suggest an edit" or "claim this space". Hans J. Huber concluded that Google is essentially providing identifiers or discoverability for local businesses, a concept closely related to the project's goal of making businesses and their official registry entries discoverable worldwide (00:00:50).

  • Governance Challenges in Business Directories (Google's Experience): John Phillips agreed with the analogy and highlighted lessons to be learned from Google's systems like Google Maps and Google Business. These systems, which have been active for over a decade, faced significant challenges in their early days due to "the wrong people were entering the wrong things about the wrong businesses," including making up information or entering false information about competitors. John Phillips explained that Google realized they needed a governance process to verify if someone was the "legitimate owner of that business" before allowing them to make comments or additions, which Google, as a platform, does not want to manage (00:02:18). Hans J. Huber interjected that Google creates infrastructure without considering the legal and governance frameworks. John Phillips noted that Google is creating information and that the legal layer often lags behind the utility created by these technologies (00:03:18).

  • The "Layers" of Business Knowledge and the Project's Focus on Authoritative Legal Trade: John Phillips emphasized that various perspectives, or "layers," of knowledge, data, and services about businesses and locations will exist, citing Google, Equifax, GS1, and GLEIF as examples of valid perspectives, each with a specific purpose (00:03:18). John Phillips stated opposition to a "one ring to rule them all" model. John Phillips noted that Google's proposition is consumer-focused, useful for people using Google Maps to find things like a cappuccino or a pizza. Hans J. Huber confirmed this perspective, referring to it as the "presentation layer" (00:04:12). John Phillips stressed the importance of the legal layer, as Alina would often remind them, noting that Google will not guarantee the truth of its entries because doing so would admit liability. John Phillips described Google's system as a "wild west" where trust is established despite the lack of laws, citing the dark web as a place where trust networks must be established for trade to occur (00:05:08). The UN project, in contrast, is narrowly focused on legal trade and authoritative sources from nation states, as the UN deals with nation states as its primary currency. John Phillips hopes their product will be used by companies like Google to build or check their maps against authoritative data, but the project does not aim to compete with such services (00:06:17). Hans J. Huber clarified that they were not proposing competition with Google, but merely indicating what already exists, suggesting they should proceed with the meeting (00:07:14).

  • Meeting Logistics and Recap of Previous Meetings: John Phillips confirmed they had been recording the discussion and then shared their screen to review the agenda for the current and following day's meeting (00:07:14). John Phillips provided a recap of the two meetings held two weeks prior, noting that while the meeting content was the same, the different audience on the two days resulted in a "very different feel and a very different content". Virginia Cram joined the meeting during this recap (00:08:15). John Phillips mentioned that the meetings are timed to accommodate different regions (e.g., 9:00 AM Madrid time for Europe, and another for the West Coast of the US and Canada). The previous meetings, as detailed in the two summaries and transcripts, involved Joe helping the team understand the challenges and opportunities in operationalizing the governance of a global registrar information directory (modeled on systems like ICAO's PKD). Discussions varied, with the second day focusing on topics like financial models, incentives, and pilots in Spain (00:09:18). These summaries, recordings, transcripts, and minutes are publicly available (00:10:24).

  • Updates on Action Items and Document Structure: John Phillips provided updates on ongoing actions. The co-lead, Alina, and John Phillips have been working on the structure of six major documents, numbered one to six, aimed at pieces of the puzzle for delivery to UNCEFACT by July of next year, or earlier for review. Rationalization of the document structure is still ongoing, following an email exchange between Alina and John Phillips earlier that week (00:10:24).

  • Pilot Framework and Country Interest: John Phillips mentioned that they would discuss the framework for pilots later in the meeting. Joe had reminded John Phillips of the need to provide information to countries interested in pilots, including Canada, Spain, potentially the Netherlands, India, and Australia (00:11:14). Alina Nika Gales, the co-lead and the land asset registrar for Spain, is interested in running a pilot, and her organization, Registradores, is headquartered in Madrid (00:12:12).

  • Technology Architecture and Digital Identity Anchor Requirements: Sankarshan provided an update on the technology architecture specifics for the operations team, noting that they would complete the draft over the weekend, not by the original 31st deadline. Sankarshan had sent an email to John Phillips, Joe, and Alina for their review and use as a "sounding board" (00:11:14). Sankarshan confirmed that they were not blocked on feedback and would share the initial draft over the weekend (00:12:12). Alina had been working on the "legalesque requirements" for digital identity anchor requirements, particularly interested in the "legal meaning of a registrar issuing a digital identity anchor to a registrant," considering its equivalency to physical documents and the associated rights and duties (00:14:14).

  • Transitioning from Google Docs to UNIC's GitLab Environment: John Phillips addressed the current documentation structure, noting that they started with Google Docs for easy collaboration and sharing, making documents open to anyone for viewing and commenting without needing accounts. However, the content needs to be moved into the "controlled space of the UN," specifically the UNIC's GitLab environment (00:13:20). John Phillips anticipated completing this move by the next meeting in two weeks, which will make editing the documents more technical (00:14:14). The new environment has been populated with drafts of requirements documents for authoritative registrars' eligibility, data capture about registrars, digital identity anchors, schemas, and governance (00:26:09). The Google Docs copy is still considered the master copy, but John Phillips will transition editing to GitLab soon (00:27:05).

  • Technical Specifications for Digital Identity Anchor (DIA): John Phillips noted that the technical specification of a digital identity anchor—how it works and what it means for a registrar to issue and for someone to verify it—still needs to be addressed. This technical work is part of what Steve wanted the team to focus on, alongside the operational legal meaning (00:15:16).

  • Progress on GitLab and the Explainer Document: John Phillips shared that they have been working on GitLab and developing explainer documents. Hans J. Huber has been very helpful in reviewing the explainer, which John Phillips believes they have improved (00:15:16).

  • Objectives and Encouragement for Pilots: John Phillips reiterated that the project brief includes provisions for pilots, which are essentially "experiments to prove or test things ideas that we have for for this program" (00:15:16). Although several countries are interested, they need further encouragement to execute the pilots. The two main objectives for all pilots are to "explore our understanding, test it, see if it works, and demonstrate if it does work," with the understanding that not all pilots will succeed and may even uncover problems that need solving (00:16:16).

  • Pilot Types and Required Participants (GRID and DIA): John Phillips outlined two types of core pilot objectives. The first is the Global Registrar Information Directory (GRID) pilot, which would require an authoritative registrar (e.g., Registrars from Australia or Company House from the UK) to work with the project on processes like application for registration in GRID, logging in, and editing their data (00:17:10). The second is the Digital Identity Anchor (DIA) pilot, which would involve more actors: an authoritative registrar, supply chain participants (buyer and seller), and an interaction pattern testing the DIA (e.g., requesting, receiving, presenting, and verifying a DIA). John Phillips suggested the possibility of a Hybrid pilot combining both GRID and DIA exploration, which would be ideal, especially if it involved collaboration across multiple registrars and countries (00:18:07).

  • Use Cases and the Role of Chambers of Commerce: John Phillips emphasized that pilots will define their own use cases within the framework's boundaries, focusing on key participants and expected interactions (00:19:06). Virginia Cram inquired about connections with chambers of commerce. John Phillips noted that one regular participant, who runs a not-for-profit lab in the Netherlands, has developed a system for digitization of the Dutch Chamber of Commerce's records and is keen on pulling them into the pilots (00:19:59). There are also conversations with ASICH in Australia and collaboration with GS1 to encourage the Australian government to think about verifiable Australian Business Numbers (ABNs), which is equivalent to a chamber of commerce organization. The core focus is on the business identifier and preventing its false presentation (00:21:09).

  • Pilot Design, Benefits, Constraints, and IPR: Pilots can consider other credentials in the UN/CEFACT core specification (e.g., conformance credentials, facility records) (00:21:09). Every pilot must be designed to demonstrate benefits and identify beneficiaries, such as making life better or reducing fraud. Once established, pilots will mostly run themselves, communicating with the project team but not being overseen by them. The IPR developed through the pilots will fall under the normal royalty-free rules of UNCEFACT (00:22:12).

  • Alignment of GRID and DIA Pilots: Jo Spencer suggested there are two types of pilots—GRID management and DIA pilots—and that DIA pilots will be tightly coupled to UN/CEFACT extensions, with a dependency on DAS being in place. Jo Spencer suggested starting GRID pilots with registrars before UN/CEFACT ones (00:23:11). John Phillips expressed optimism about decoupling the two, but Jo Spencer cautioned that they need to be "design aligned" to ensure they can eventually join up. John Phillips confirmed they will send the pilot deck to specific interested parties, including Nancy Morris's team in British Columbia (focusing on critical minerals) and the trade department in India (00:24:15).

  • Transition to GitLab and the GRID Explainer (Logical Model): John Phillips detailed the move to a UNIC-hosted GitLab environment, noting the work involved in transferring content from Google to this platform (00:25:09). The GitLab environment features source control and automated Continuous Integration/Continuous Development (CI/CD) (00:26:09). John Phillips introduced the term GRID (Global Registrar Information Directory), which is the recommended name for the output of the project, as the project's current name, "Global Trust Registry Project," sounds "terrifying" (00:27:05). John Phillips explained that the project is recommending the creation of this thing. GRID is a logical model (not necessarily a physical, centralized one) that attempts to explain what the UN global registrar information directory is (00:28:10) (00:37:47).

  • The Rationale and Components of the GRID Logical Model: John Phillips walked through the GRID logical model, starting with the premise that supply chains are complex and involve participants who are both buyers and suppliers (00:29:15). A core axiom is that all participants in a legal trade transaction are registered in a nation state with an authoritative registrar (00:30:23).

    • Registrar vs. Register: John Phillips emphasized distinguishing between the registrar (the authorized body that performs the registration) and the register (the list of things produced by the registrar) (00:31:52).

    • Simplifications in the Diagram: The diagram simplifies by showing only one registrar per nation state, despite the reality of multiple registrars for different assets or even the same type of assets (like in Germany) (00:30:23). The diagram does not show the contents of the registers, as the project is not telling sovereign nation states what to include (00:32:51).

    • Trade Documentation: Trade involves products, documentation, and a value exchange (which can include money or goods in kind). Much of this documentation is physical (paper or PDFs) (00:33:44).

    • Key Areas of Interest: The project is interested in the "who and what" of trade—the Digital Product Passport (product description, attributes, claims) and the Digital Identity Anchor (company identity, registration location) (00:34:46).

    • Need for Verification: All documentation presented to a buyer or relying party (including border control, regulators, tax officers) needs to be checked for regulatory compliance and commercial expectations (00:34:46).

    • The Problem GRID Solves: The crucial challenge is how a relying party can check if a claimed registrar is, in fact, the authoritative body for a supplier's country and what process is used to legitimize the registered item, especially when fabricated provenance data is possible (00:35:51).

    • GRID's Function and Model: GRID is needed because there is no current good answer for finding authoritative registrars. The model is based on ICAO's Public Key Directory (PKD) (00:36:48). This means it is self-managed, lightweight, and opt-in for nation states, with the UN body providing essential, lightweight governance and operational support (00:37:47).

  • Decoupling GRID and DIA Development and the Commercial Opportunities: Hans J. Huber inquired about the technical workstream for GRID and DIA. John Phillips confirmed that changes Hans J. Huber previously submitted to the DIA spec (part of the UN/CEFACT UNTP project) have been approved and implemented in the public-facing pages (00:40:42). John Phillips proposed that the current project should use pilots and practical ideas to develop recommendations for changes to the DIA spec, which would then be pushed back to UN/CEFACT UNTP, as this project should not be the spec's custodian. John Phillips encouraged Hans J. Huber, Joe, and Sankarshan to participate in the UN/CEFACT technical working group for DIA spec updates (00:43:00). Jo Spencer confirmed that Harley is running the technical stream for UNP, which handles the technical definition for DIA expectations (00:43:59). Jo Spencer stressed the need to segregate responsibilities between GRID functions (management and maintenance) and the support for DIA functionality for UN/CEFACT UNTP. John Phillips, maintaining an optimistic view, argued that the work can be carried out in parallel, due to the expected variance in the digital maturity of registrars globally (00:45:36). The GRID will map "what is," and DIA adoption will be a recommendation, which will gradually turn the entries "green" as registrars adopt them. Jo Spencer agreed, noting that the GRID must enable consumers to understand how to use registrar functionality based on varying maturity levels, which will require relying parties to handle multiple interaction types (e.g., web lookups, credential-based solutions) (00:46:38).

  • Commercialization Layer and Sustainability: John Phillips proposed that a successful GRID would create a market opportunity for commercial services. Because the GRID will map the global diversity of ways things are issued and verified, entrepreneurial organizations could offer a verification service across that diversity, using GRID as a reference source (00:47:41). John Phillips cautioned that the UN should not go too far up to this commercial layer. Hans J. Huber agreed that this represented "commercialization on the right layer". Virginia Cram also agreed, noting the UN needs to maintain distance from commercial implementations (00:48:50).

  • Comparison to LOC (Legal Entity Identifier Operational Governance): Virginia Cram brought up the UN LOC (Low Code) system as a potential source of learning (00:48:50). John Phillips noted that they looked at LOC and recognized the need for a sustainable operational model. The ICAO PKD system provides a good model because its low annual fee per country is sufficient to sustain the system, whereas LOC lacks a funding model and struggles with maintenance. John Phillips stated that the project would recommend a self-sustaining financial model for GRID to the July plenary next year (00:49:53).

  • Eligibility Requirements for Registrars: Virginia Cram emphasized that a key requirement should be including a registrar in the GRID only if a government has designated it as valid. John Phillips confirmed that Alina has written "terrifying" legal requirements for eligibility, but they are based on the fundamental principle that a participant "must be the legally recognized authority for a nation state in registering this thing". This means the GRID will not initially include useful global services like GLY because they are not nation states, but a country could recognize a system supported by GLY as its registrar (00:50:53). John Phillips stressed that this requirement should not close the gate to developing countries with immature digital capabilities, as the goal is to raise the floor for everyone (00:52:10).

Suggested next steps​

  • sankarshan will put together and share the initial draft on the technology architecture specifics for the operations team over the weekend.

  • John Phillips will move the content of the documents into the UNIC's GitLab environment by the next meeting.

  • John Phillips will create new explainers about the digital identity anchor (DIA) and how the group sees it working.

  • John Phillips will directly connect to the critical minerals bodies in British Columbia and the trade department in India to advise them about the pilots.